12/02/06
Comments:
Dear Brother Phil, Good for you! And now we have all these font specifications too! Not to mention the Spell Check option! Thank you for the concern and your firm stand. Christian Love, - R
12/02/06
Comments:
Well, let us now proceed in a civilised manner, with no distracting adverts for sites in opposition to gw!
12/02/06
Comments:
DEAR ALL, I HAVE NOW MOVED THE GUESTBOOK SERVICE TO WEBSITETOOLBOX WHO ALSO PROVIDE THE FORUM. THERE WILL BE NO BANNER ADS NOW. THANK YOU FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING IN THIS MATTER. IN THE END, THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN RESOLVED IN JUST OVER 24 HOURS OF MY LEARNING OF IT.
12/02/06
Comments:
| Name: | Phil | | Comments: | Thank you for your kind words, all.
I will not operate a Guestbook which advertises websites that are clearly opposed to the aims of my site.
It will be possible to solve this problem, but it may take a day or two, so your forbearance is appreciated. | Friday, December 1st 2006 - 07:59:01 PM
| Name: | Paris Alex | | Comments: | Hi Phil,
I do not think you should worry too much about these ad. We all know how website links are being used by announcers, and it's the price to pay if we want to maintain helpful public service websites online. Try to get rid of them but if you can't then do not worry about them and just mention clearly in the homepage that these are not upon your responsibility.
thanks for your careful concern | Friday, December 1st 2006 - 07:46:29 PM
| Name: | Becky | | Comments: | Try the google ad filter. Maybe you can use filter words like watchtower and Jehovah. I emailed a complaint to google about the banner....May have sent you this already, but was interrupted by having to pick up my 14 year old from someplace and then I ate dinner...can't remember anything these days. | Friday, December 1st 2006 - 07:23:32 AM
| Name: | Ivar | | Comments: | Dear Brother Phil,
We do understand that you are not responsible for the contents of the banner ads.
I just thought I would mention that the banner Ads appear at the top of only the current guestbook - Guestbook # 5.
So there may not be a need to remove the other guestbooks - yes?
I do hope you get the issue resolved.
What is the arrangement to gain access to the Discussion Forum?
- R | Friday, December 1st 2006 - 04:15:19 AM
| Name: | Phil | | Comments: | I HAVE WRITTEN TO DREAMBOOK REGARDING REMOVING THE BANNER ADVERTS. IF IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO SO, THE GUESTBOOKS WILL BE DELETED. PLEASE BE PATIENT WHILE I AWAIT A RESPONSE, AND PLEASE REMEMBER THAT I DO NOT CONTROL THE CONTENT OF THESE ADS.
| Friday, December 1st 2006 - 01:43:46 AM
| Name: | Phil | | Comments: | DEAR ALL,
I HAVE NOTED THE APPEARANCE OF BANNER ADS AT THE TOP OF THE GUESTBOOK. THIS IS A NEW FEATURE AND I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT OR FOR THE CONTENT OF THE ADVERTS.
I WILL IMMEDIATELY INVESTIGATE WAYS TO GET RID OF THEM AS I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR CONTENT. THERE ARE NO SUCH ADS IN THE FORUM PART OF THE SITE.
PLEASE BEAR WITH ME FOR SOME HOURS WHILE I SEE WHAT CAN BE DONE. IF THE ADS CANNOT BE REMOVED I WILL TERMINATE THE FIVE GUESTBOOKS. THANK YOU FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING. | Friday, December 1st 2006 - 01:16:41 AM
12/02/06
Comments:
Dear Brother Phil and all the other brothers and sisters,
Thank you all for the comments and the encouragement that you offer at this site. Your effort reminds me of the 4th stanza of Song 182 - "Balsam in Gilead".
One thing that has helped me in the fight is to keep self out of sight. Keeping in focus the greater issue that is involved, the issue that has brought the whole human race under imperfection, and knowing that all of us, desiring to live in Godly devotion, have a fight helps in not attaching too much importance to any one aspect of human imperfection.
Also, of great benefit is this practical advice: at any one time, the mind can focus on only one thought or trend of thought. It is like two sides of a record. Either Side A or Side B.
If we are determined to stick to Side A, then over time, things get easier.
That has been my personal experience.
Christian Love,
Your Brother,
- R | Wednesday, November 29th 2006 - 12:21:31 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Hi Phil and LJ,
I am glad you feel you’ve gained some insight into your feelings, LJ. Now if we can just hope that Jehovah will send you a salient mentor who can model our heavenly Father’s deep concern for you. I myself used Richard Cohen’s book “Gay Children, Straight Parents: a Plan for Family Healing,” almost on a daily basis for a while just to keep me focused on my child’s needs as opposed to my own issues. I also kept thinking about the book of John and who Jehovah is...the personification of love. Since Jesus himself was the perfect example of Jehovah’s qualities, I would imagine what he would say and do and how he would talk to me and to my daughter. I was able to do this from having read the Greatest Man Who Ever Lived book. In your case, being a male, I would continue praying for a really loving mature elder with good insight. Give him NARTH literature. And I would still have such an elder refer to Cohen’s book so he understands that a relational wound requires a human to human relationship to heal. Jehovah himself recognizes that we are social creatures which is why he had his angel, as his representative, interact daily with Adam. LJ, you are in my prayers. Look for resources in your area.
Phil, there is no doubt as to the value of this website and believe me, more witnesses are looking and thinking than are commenting. They are glad for this lifeline. I recently started being very open about my daughter’s lesbianism. Most were empathetic; only two people have turned away from hearing about it. I had one elder thank me profusely for explaining what appear to be the causes and how one can help. My elders were very, very kind. Elders in my old congregation were mostly kind, but I think one rather dominant old fellow (the PO) just couldn’t get it and saw one’s attraction as being something that is “chosen.” His lack of insight is sad and was very readily sensed by three other young SSA sufferers who left his congregation. Only one of them was able to stay in the Truth... and these were just the ones I picked up on! How many more are we losing unnecessarily? One divorced sister confided in me that her adult son was gay and that she didn’t want anyone to know in case he came back to the Truth. Her ex husband had a terrible if not nonexistent relationship with his son. She was glad to have someone to talk to. She cruised the web looking for answers. I have shown her this site. Broken hearted family members need support in their grief and guidance on what they can do to draw their children back to the God of mercy.
Obviously not all boys or girls without same sex parents become gay. The experience of NARTH therapists is that there are several paths to homosexuality and that people’s attractions lie on a continuum and vary in intensity. Gays can have a history of detached same sex parents, abuse, peer wounding, high sensitivity in many combinations and to varying degrees. It is NARTH’s position that environmental and genetic factors don’t dictate, but predispose a person and that change can be very difficult, but is not impossible. Many clients claim to gain insights into their compulsive acting out and that this knowledge helps them to better control their behavior. I’ve met people who claim to have changed, but I understand that most of them don’t want to take it on as a mission, but instead want to just go on with their lives. Peoplecanchange.com may be a non religious resource to connect with those who claim to have achieved change.
As afar as Freud is concerned, here is a link to an article that appeared in Scientific American in May, 2004 entitle “Freud Returns.” http://www.neuro-psa.org.uk/download/SAorig.pdf
This article describes how recent diverse neurological findings due to new technology are leading to a “a chemical framework of the mind that validates the general sketch Freud made almost a century ago.” Another article written by Oliver James, author of a very readable book listed in the link, makes the following statement.
“The single most important Freudian idea to have been recently validated is that early childhood experience has an enduring and ever-present influence on our adulthood.” James also says on page 99 of his book “They **** You Up” (The title is rather colorful), “Despite the huge publicity accorded to them, studies purporting to prove that male homosexuality is caused by genes or brain abnormalities have turned out to be largely groundless.”
http://www.neuro-psa.org.uk/npsa/PR/pr_theguardianmarch222003.html
Well, Phil, our nature versus nurture debate continues... Jehovah did some remarkable high density programming at many, many levels in the genes. In order to give those meager 30,000 or so human genes (a fruit fly has 15,000) as much individuality and adaptability as possible, he made mechanisms to turn on and off genes and fill in missing blanks (such as our mommy object) based on environment. And according to Stookey, (http://www.producer.com/free/editorial/content/stookey.html) most animals and birds will choose their adult love object based on this mommy object or species they imprinted upon in early life. Bird neuro- ethologist Hans-Joachim Bischof writes that these factors of genes and environment work together in a finely tuned dance to drive a dendritic growth and pruning process in the brain which he has actually measured that apparently encodes this very specific (species..specific) environmental information that will guide mating at puberty (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/brill/ab/2003/00000053/00000002/art00003) . Jehovah didn’t reinvent a useful life design every time he started a new creature. Think of mitochondria, the energy factories in all animal cells. He conserves his efficient designs and we can expect that humans too have efficient genetic coding that instead of hardwiring for every environmental possibility allows us to learn from our environment. That genetic coding gives us capacity for our species identification from our environment in early life just like it gives us capacity for language. And like the animal model, it would seem likely that social relationships in early life also drive human mate selection at puberty. That’s what Freud suspected. It would of course be unethical to isolate human babies and do to their brains what Dr. Bischof does to finch brains. However, sparse but plausible accounts of feral children (wolf children) who seem to adopt animalistic traits and identities indicate an environmentally driven brain shaping so permanent as to prevent acclimation to human society.
At the end of the day, the question remains, “can one change?” I believe that Jehovah’s crowning creative achievement of Adam and Eve was a result of encoding for learning and brain plasticity on a scale far surpassing that of the animals and that knowing who Jehovah is (the personification of love), it should be no surprise that loving relationships go a long way in activating brain change. So, the idea that change is possible shouldn’t be surprising, but little about the path to change is really known. No one should feel wicked or unloved by Jehovah if change doesn’t happen. Whether those attractions remain or one gets relief, all who seek Jehovah can be assured of his continued affection. The continued chaste example of Phil and others can strengthen strugglers no matter what happens. It will all be worth it when God’s kingdom restores peace to our troubled planet and our hearts.
Gioele, Davey, H., and everybody, hang in there. We love you all. | Wednesday, November 29th 2006 - 12:12:31 AM
12/02/06
Comments:
LJ, thank you for signing the Guestbook. Good to hear from you.
I don't want to stray too far, in the Guestbook, into a topic that is explored in some considerable detail in the Forum part of the site ("Therapy For Change" is by far the longest thread, curently at twelve pages of high-quality discussion and analysis).
But I think it has to be mentioned that there is no scientific evidence that the lack of a father in any way contributes to causing a homosexual orientation. Nor is there any scientific evidence whatever that sexual orientation can be changed by addressing issues relating to parenting.
Sigmund Freud a hundred years ago posited various ideas about the effects of parenting, and sixty or so years ago, it became popular to suggest that these ideas had some validity in relation to the suggestion that inadequate parenting or the lack of a parent could cause homosexuality.
No science has backed up these Freudian theories however.
A prolonged period of pretty extensive searching by the operator of this site, has failed to unearth any relaible evidence of any person anywhere at any time who has changed sexual orientation by any kind of therapy.
The editorial position of this site, therefore, is at this time that the homosexual orientation is not caused by parenting factors, and cannot be changed by therapy.
This emphatically does NOT mean that this site is against ALL therapy, of course. Many have found a variety of therapies, including Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, helpful for difficult issues. It is most regrettable to hear of the abuse you suffered, which is certain to have left scars. Perhaps a medical professional may be able to advise on any therapy suitable to help deal with such scars.
And, as said below, contributors to this site would I am sure be pleased to help. | Friday, November 24th 2006 - 10:06:18 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Gioele, thank you for taking the time to post to the guestbook.
As I am sure you know, many in the Christian congregation cope bravely and resolutely with a variety of "thorns in the flesh" (2 Corinthians 12:7). Those coping with a homosexual orientation in the Christian congregation have no monopoly on bravery!
Nonetheless, the fact that in many lands the topic of same-sex desire is not spoken of in society at large, can make it difficult to do so even in the congregation, and those in that situation can feel isolated.
Geoele, please be assured that there is no reason why you may not return to the congregation. I am sure that you would receive a warm welcome, and any needed help, if you made the decision to attend a meeting at your nearest Kingdom Hall. You wil certainly not be the first to do so from the position that you're now in.
You may be certain that those on this site will be pleased to assist in any way possible.
| Friday, November 24th 2006 - 09:47:32 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Hello Every one!
I just wanted to say hi! It's been a long time since I've posted on this (or any other) web-site.
I read the entire guestbook(5) and I most say that I found it very helpfull, very encouraging and educational.
I really appreciated Becky's input, mostly because I've come to the conclusion that I am lacking (have allways lacked) that father (and mother) bond that is so essential to us humans, especially the father bond. I find that I really need and crave to be touched by a male. I beat myseld over the head asking myself "WHY", Why do I so need a mans touch. After much meditation, I went back, way back to my childhood, and realized that I never had a father. Take that and add it to the fact that I was being molested by my slightly older cousin (it went on for atleast the first 4 years of my life) and it made it clear to me that my craving was much like Becky described it in her comments. I really most agree with Becky (although I value every ones opinions).
I want to conlude saying that I more than admire Becky's support, and determination for her daughter, I kind of feel jealous that my own parents didn't (and still don't) give me that kind of help that I so desperately would have needed.
With all this I'm not trying to say that there isn't any truth with every else's view points, because I'm sure the certainly is. I just happen to identify with Becky's words.
Last but not least. I wanted to tell Phil that I GREATLY APPRECIATE AND VALUE his time and effort he puts in keeping this website going. I know it's alot of work and very time consuming. Don't ever doubt that this site helps and encourages us, and every one that has ever turned to it for support.
Agape Love
LJ
| Friday, November 24th 2006 - 03:41:02 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Dear brothers & sisters,
It’s amazing the way you guys are supporting each other and the way you’re all fighting the battle I lost 5 years ago, when I become an inactive JW (I never got disfellowshipped) . I thought I was spiritually dead until I found out about this website a couple of days ago. I spent hours reading and meditating on your stories and I broke down in tears. You guys are so strong and brave! I really esteem and respect you.
I want to say thank to Lizzy for her encouraging words. In particular when she mentioned about the future, when Jehovah will reveal his original purpose about human relationships. I think she is right. Maybe marriage was only a means to bring forth children… We really do not know what Jehovah has got in mind for all us, gay people, after Armageddon. I do believe you can fall in love with a person of the same sex and lead a happy life. But obviously this is almost impossible in this world, where people on the gay scene are shallow and emphasise too much on sex and vanity.
Yes, the gay scene could be fun. But the concept many gay people have about a better life, relationships and sex is absolutely wrong. Some guys think that if you are over 25 you are too old to be in a relationship, and if you’re in a relationship maybe you could spice up you sex life having a threesome with your partner or deciding to live an open relationship. For some guys if you don’t wear D&G outfit and don’t go to the gym you’re not good enough.
In this world you can't really look to the gay scene or gay people to meet your needs. All these good looking guys can entertain you for a night or two…and that’s all. We really need a perfect world for a perfect relationship.
I wish I could meet some of you one day, exchange experiences and maybe become friends. After reading your comments and stories I’m considering returning and would love to receive some advice from you.
I hope one day we can all live together, in perfect love and friendship.
Lots of love,
Gioele xxx
| Thursday, November 23rd 2006 - 07:15:05 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Dear Adam,
Thank you for posting to the Guestbook. It is good to hear that you have settled well into your congregation in London.
While it may not be quite right to say that it is "normal" to be "gay" in Britain, there is at least a cultural background here that allows for the topic to be discussed in society at large. And since London is a very large city with a very diverse population, those in the Christian Congregation there are used to meeting people from a wide variety of backgrounds and situations in life.
It is notable that in 1980 Awake! described the kind hospitality shown by a London congregation to a man who was studying, and to his male partner:
"Members of the local congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses often invited us out to meals and social gatherings. We were shown much understanding. My companion had every reason to see that he was not being left out of things. Indeed, he was being encouraged as much as I was"> (Awake! June 22 1980).
It is very good to learn that you have such close friends in your congregation. It is a fine thing to be able to confide difficult feelings in a trusted friend. Scripture tells us to "carry one another's burdens" Even so, sometimes no-one but our Creator can understand exactly how we feel. A fine point was made about this in The Watchtower of November 15 2004 in discussing Proverbs 14:10:
"This proverb also teaches that although it is comforting to turn to an empathetic friend for emotional support, humans are limited in the comfort they can offer. We may have to rely on Jehovah alone when it comes to enduring some difficulties".
Hopefully, reviewing the Scriptures and comments on this site may be a source of encouragement, recognising all along, however, that our strength must come from God.
| Friday, November 3rd 2006 - 01:11:31 AM
12/02/06
Comments:
| Hi Everyone. I think its an excellent idea of this webside. Where else you can find someone who have problem with homosexual orientation and same time wants to serve to Jehovah. Like many of you I thought Im the only one who have to cope with being gay- there was no way to ask someone for help or understanding especially in my little town and little congregation in very intolerant eastern european country where I was living. Everything have changed when I moved to London. First of all I found out that to be gay is quite normal in this country and brothers and sisters have also completly different point of vue for that thing. Much easier was to share my top secret with my best friends from my congregation- mostly sisters ;-) But although they are a great support for me, still I feel sometimes so alone with my problem and only Jehovah knows my pain... and You my brothers and sisters, too. Everyone have to coupe with something but it is much easier if you know that you are not alone and many of brothers and sisters have to coupe with the same. When I found out about this webside smile came back on my face and hope because actually although I have many lovely friends in congregation none of them is gay. None of them actually really feel my problem. I wish I could meet some of you and become a good friends and support for each other with this time fully understanding. Imagine! One day all of us will be straight! Jehovah promised that. Im looking forward for it. My mind is with all of you My Brothers and Sisters. Lots of warm hugs. ps. sorry for my english, he he | Friday, November 3rd 2006 - 12:21:05 AM
12/02/06
Comments:
| Name: | Davey | | Comments: | Hope all is well and healthy.
I am wanting to say hello to everyone and hope we find mutual encouragement. To Rob I am also in the UK and agree that having a wife as well as having same sex attractions is not easy but the best place to ask is those who are married.
Take care everyone and hope to hear from some of you soon.
Agape love.
Davey | Thursday, October 19th 2006 - 07:08:46 PM
| Name: | M. | | Comments: | Hi Andres, I'm sure brothers/sisters will write. Keep close to Jehovah and the organization and He will be there for you too. | Tuesday, October 17th 2006 - 02:35:42 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Hallo !
Leider spreche (schreibe) ich kein Englich.
Vielleicht ist ja jemand hier, der Deutsch spricht (schreibt) und sich mal bei mir melden könnte.
Ich würde mich gerne einmal näher austauschen.
Diese Homepage bzw. die Thematik könnte mir glaube ich helfen.
Näheres möchte ich hier nicht schreiben.
Ich würde mich freuen, wenn sich jemand meldet.
Herzliche Grüße
H. | Sunday, October 1st 2006 - 07:09:06 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Hi Phil!!
Just I want to say thank you to all the brothers that have taken care of me and the situation with my brother.
All of you have helped me a lot (specially Ben) and I would really like that my brother would had the strenght that all of you are proving day after day until the Paradaise arrives.
I want to encourage all of you to continue in the truth, we all have to face difficulties, some worst and more difficult than others, but while we are living in this sistem we have to endure I make Jehovah our friends, and we can also find support in this site that help us to find others in our same situation (no only you that are suffering but also the comments of family).
Thanks a lot and I hope my brother will turn to the truth in a near feature.
Martha from Spain | Thursday, September 28th 2006 - 06:29:55 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Hi,
I am so glad to have met up with other gay JW's = heres me thinking I was all alone!!
So glad to have stumbled across this site - we all need the support of each other.
Be good!
David
x | Monday, September 25th 2006 - 04:33:58 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
| Just thought I'd finally say, Hi! I've been stressed out lately dealing with other problems besides being gay. I'm glad to see so much support here. We're all in this together. | Tuesday, September 19th 2006 - 07:35:53 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Hi everyone,
We have lots of gay brothers and some gay sisters and the occasional straight sister, but when can we hear from a straight brother on this site? If there are any out there, let's hear from you. We need encouragement from your sector too. How about parents struggling? I know several because I have started sharing with many others about my daughter's struggle. They are too afraid to tell others usually in case their child returns they don't want them to be shamed. This is a safe place to get encouragement. Jehovah loves all of you and understands your feelings. I live in California by the way.
| Wednesday, September 13th 2006 - 02:41:53 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Hello all my dear brothers and sisters!
It has been many, many moons since I have posted on any site and it is so encouraging to see that so many are still fighting the battle and winning! I know personally how difficult it is from day to day.
I was reading a post about the need to be held. I don't know about anyone else, but I especially feel that need. We all have a need for human contact, from babies to the very old, and none of us get enough of it.
I am a Ministerial Servant in my mid-30's in the Southern US. I post very seldom but I keep all of you in my prayers and in my heart. Stay strong! The end is very near! | Saturday, September 9th 2006 - 12:05:07 AM
12/02/06
Comments:
Dear Lizzie,
Thank you very much for those kind words, which mean a lot to me and have encouraged me.
Just for the record, I think I should clarify that I am not currently pioneering, though I served as a pioneer for some years in the past.
I think we must all be grateful to "James" who started the old "jwsupport" site which ran from late 1999 until the spring of 2003. That site enabled many to discover that there were others like them, wanting to remain faithful in the Christian congregation. For the first time, they could share encouragement and scriptural support with those in a similar situation. For many, that was like a lifeline.
I am certain that you and your husband both derive strength and succour from the fidelity you show to each other and to God's arrangements within Christian marriage and the Christian congregation.
Kindest regards,
Phil.
| Wednesday, August 16th 2006 - 01:51:15 AM
12/02/06
Comments:
Dear Phil,
"He that is showing favor to the lowly one is lending to Jehovah, and his treatment he will repay to him"- Proverbs19:17
That is the scripture I wanted to share with you, because of what you are doing for brothers and sisters in the same situation as my husband Cohen (since this week on your website). Your time and energy in this are so appreciated by us! We understand you have a tight schedule with pioneering too. After years of pain and the continuing daily battle, I see the change in him since he found your website with the comfort of you and others. You are doing this in a decent and respectful way, giving Jehovah's principles the first place. Cohen and I try to find a way in our marriage, ans Jehovah blesses us in amazing ways. Thank you so much for being there for my husband, I cried when I read your loving encouragements.I am realy curious for the future, when Jehovah reveals his original purpose about human relationships. Because marriage was only a means to bring forth children, but in the most perfect way we will be as angels, the same state as the people who will be resurrected. Living all together, in perfect love and friendship. The world emphasises to much on sexual relationships. Without that it was all less complicated.
"Jehovah himself will complete what is in my behalf"- Psalms 138:8a
With warm christian love,
Lizzy
| Tuesday, August 15th 2006 - 07:32:55 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
| Rob, I get through doors because, in addition to all of my other manifest virtues, I am excessively modest....... | Saturday, August 12th 2006 - 02:17:19 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Hi Martin
I've been here long so can't really welcome in anyother way but to say I'm pleased you've found this site.
Phil has been great with me too. -
Phil - how do you cope getting your head through doorways?
Martin, being accepted and welcomed has made such a difference this week I'm sure you'll find the same. | Saturday, August 12th 2006 - 01:12:13 AM
12/02/06
Comments:
Just wanted to say how grateful I am for this site. I found it only last night and already Phil has given some great information and help. I am hoping to make contact with others like me who are finding the life of being a gay witness really hard.
Much love to all your Brothers (and Sisters)
Martin
| Friday, August 11th 2006 - 10:11:48 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
| French Brother, happiness in this sytem can only ever be RELATIVE. See the quote from The Watchtower in 1994, on the Literature page of this site. | Friday, August 11th 2006 - 12:24:04 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Thanks Nebby for the few words on your homepage. It gave me a little hope for the rest of my day:
" [...] I chosed to stay single. Its not the easiest way to live my life, but i am sure its the one with the biggest reward.
[...] I don't expect the whole world to accept this. I am prepared to be rejected. But I don't wanna hide who I am. And i wanna make clear that my priority is serving Jehova
[...] even if it seemes impossible. You can live even now a meaningfull and happy life, awaiting Jehovas reward in paradise, where we'll be all perfect again... "
I'm not sure to live an happy life, but sure your words are encouraging.
Kisses from France, where today's sunny ! | Thursday, August 10th 2006 - 07:05:30 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Hi,
wow there are quite a few newbies... :-D
I just want to give you all a warm wellcome, Marc, Enoch, Rob, JC and mon frere francais.
I hope you do find big encouragement here. I know I found a lot, and some really nice friends.
Becky, although I don't might follow you with the Therapy-Theorie, I do admire the effort you do to support your daughter, and to find a way to help her to stay faithfull to Jehovah. Please make sure, that she knows, you will still love here, even if the therapy wouldn't change her 100% and you will always be there for her to support her, even if she stays gay, but decides to serve Jehovah. I am so thankfull that my parents do show me how proud they are, to see me serving Jehovah, even with this thorn.
big hug my brothers and sisters
nebby | Thursday, August 10th 2006 - 09:01:08 AM
12/02/06
Comments:
| Hi guys im 20 in the UK. Would like to know more about people about this is. | Wednesday, August 9th 2006 - 11:34:34 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
| I think one of the keys is to have a wide variety of friends; married, single, long distance, local, young and old. People will always change, whether it be through marriage, moving away, moving on or growing up so it's good to have a wide companion base. Having brothers who share the SSA is valuable but having brothers who are spiritually strong and are interested in our eternal wellfare are the most important. | Tuesday, August 8th 2006 - 03:19:03 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Hi all
Just found the website, and what a great place!!!
I'm 26 uk.
Its sad but I find that where I live its common to have the attitude that after school you should be on the lookout for a prospective marriage mate. Don't think thats gonna happen to me somehow!!!
But unfortunately most of my friends are now married and going through that time when they draw away into themselves as married couples.
How does everyone else deal with this?
| Sunday, August 6th 2006 - 04:57:15 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
| Name: | jc | | Comments: | An italian brother looking for confort.
| Saturday, August 5th 2006 - 09:28:49 PM
| Name: | A french active brother | | Comments: | Thanks for your website. | Friday, August 4th 2006 - 06:08:42 PM
| Name: | Enoch | | Comments: | My favorite color is orange and I like lasagna. | Friday, August 4th 2006 - 01:56:22 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
You should know also that I value very much Becky's open, respectful and enquiring spirit, and I have a private correspondence with her.
Becky, I apologise for confusing the word "although" for the word "despite" in a reply below. | Friday, August 4th 2006 - 12:29:52 PM
12/02/06
Comments:
Rufus, I do not think ANYONE on this site is against attempts to quell homosexual desire. I'm certainly not. In essence, that is what the whole site is FOR.
If in some way I have given the impression that I am against attempts to quell desire for sex outside of faithful monogamous heterosexual marriage, then I have failed dismally to make my point.
What I am against, is persons promising to alter sexual orientation from "gay" to "straight" by "therapy" IF that is not in fact possible.
I really do believe that careful reading of the relevant thread in the Forum will make it abundantly clear that I am absolutely FOR any approach that helps a person to quell unwanted sexual desire (in effect, to "deaden, therefore, your body members", as the Apostle Paul put it). I really do not see how a person reading what I have written could think otherwise.
If you would bother to read the relevant parts of the Forum you would see that I comment on the BBC television documentary "Sad to be Gay". I refer approvingly to the fact that, though the "gay" journalist's visit to "Love In Action" in Tennessee failed completely and entirely to alter his sexual orientation in any way, (and the process along the way made him upset and despressed) it did give him a 'breathing space' to re-assess his promiscuity and to consider building on other more wholesome priorities in his life, which is what he did. A positive outcome of sorts. But not what "Love In Action" was selling/advertising.
Rufus, if you order and pay for a wardrobe, and they deliver a refrigerator instead, you are not getting the product you expected. The fact that a new refrigerator might actually be useful to you, is beside the point.
These "therapists" and "ministries" are NOT advertising a product along the lines of "we help you value celibacy and keep your mind off sex". They advertise CHANGE of DESIRE from "gay" to "straight". That is what people pay them money for.
Show me any "ministry" or "therapist" that advertises simply "celibacy and coping", Rufus.
And do me the courtesy of reading what I have written before attributing views to me that I don't have.
This is a robust post and I may remove it soon. Discussion of "therapy for change" will continue only in the Forum. | Friday, August 4th 2006 - 12:24:43 PM
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Becky,
You are to be commended for going such a good job in replying to the hot potato of reparative therapy. You seem to be thoughtful, earnest and open-minded in your quest.
While not wishing to pour any more gasoline on this fire, I think it only fair to suggest that not everyone associated with this site is quite so vociferous in denouncing attempts to quell unwanted homosexual desires. I've always taken Phil's position to be that it is a fruitless (sic) endeavor to try to "change" one's sexual orientation through the likes of NARTH and to this I concur. I don't see that "change" can occur this side of Armageddon.
What seems to be lost in the crossfire is the fact that some of the principles endorsed by some of these 'therapies' have indeed proved helpful to some of our brothers and sisters to 'cope' with day to day desires and have helped to becalm the rage of hormones.
Personally, I am not interested in such therapies and have learned to cope (endure might be a better word) in other ways... But I just feel it's only fair to acknowledge that some faithful brothers I know have found some of the NARTHesque principles to be of benefit.
As one sister in my hall once innocently remarked, she "feels sad for brothers who are gay, because they don't know what to do". Unfortunately, we're all a bit in the dark here. How we are to cope is not 100% clear. If NARTH principles are helping you, then who am I to say not to pursue them? | Friday, August 4th 2006 - 04:01:10 AM
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Thank you for posting that information Becky.
There is an extensive thread on "therapy" matters in the Forum, and I prefer now that exploration of the topic continues there.
Some of the aspects you raise about attitudes in the congregations are also covered in the Forum. | Wednesday, August 2nd 2006 - 10:59:55 AM
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Here are some of my resources:
http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=ijp.064.0365a - Infantile Origins of Sexual Identity This is my premier book for getting a feel for the critical phases of identity and ego development in infants and toddlers. Its not just important for understanding sexual orientation development, but for understanding how critical the environment of the first 2 to 3 years of life are to our lifelong personality. The small baby brain does an incredible amount of growth and wiring at that time, so Roiphe and Galensen's observations and insights on identity formation should not surprise us.
PFOX (Parents and Friends of ExGays)
http://www.pfox.org/asp/newsman/anmviewer.asp?a=119&print=yesYes, I know PFOX can be political, so I won't join, but the above is a link to an interview with Dr. Elain Siegel. This is a book I have read.
[Female Homosexuality: Choice Without Volition - A Psychoanalytic Study, Volume 9 of the Psychoanalytic Inquire Book Series, (Hilldale, NJ: The Analytic Press, 1988, p. xii] She was highly regarded in a lesbian community until several of her patients started spontaneously changing to hetero relationships as they dealt with early life wounds. She identified distinct patterns of early life trauma or failure to attach to mother that differentiated her lesbian clients for others.
http://www.journeychristianministries.org/Article.htm
I was put off by the inclusion of the word "Christian" in the name, but found that here was a counselor who did not advocate homosexuality as a lifestyle choice as did most other psychologists I checked into. I have spent several hours speaking with Andria Siegler Smalz. She was very, very respectful of my beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and we did NOT debate the Bible NOR did we pray together. She is an extraordinarily compassionate counselor. She is married with kids and a husband and, in my opinion, she presented as rather masculine. I assumed she had been lesbian in the past although I did not ask about it. I paid her for her time just as I pay my general practitioner who is Catholic whom I also have never prayed with. I did some therapy with her and with her gentle guiding and questions, I started rather quickly making some connections of how my early life experience shaped my personality. I experienced some insights into my parents' unconscious shaping and wounding of me. This was almost more than I could handle from an emotional standpoint right now and I have postponed serious work in this regard. Therapy for early life wounds, whatever the type, can be deep, painful work is what I learned. And, true healing does NOT happen overnight. All wounds require a grief process and again...healing does NOT happen overnight.
Gene Worship:Moving Beyond the Nature/Nurture Debate over Genes, Brain, and Gender by Gisela Kaplan and Lesley Rogers. This is a current book that discredits the gay gene theory. Dr. Rogers is herself gay I believe. She identifies culture as a main factor. I don't agree entirely, but I believe our experience of life in the first 3 years is the biggest cultural influence in our lives anyway. Genes are limited in what they can code. By making brain/personality development a gene/environment interaction, Jehovah added exponentially to the diversity of mankind.
Another resource is Janelle Hallman, a therapist in Colorado, who has written extensively for NARTH about lesbianism. I learned so very much from this woman and her lectures and writings.
I attended her retreat with other mothers of lesbians. Janelle trained us in the technique called "reflective listening" among other things. She modeled compassion and showed us mothers how to maintain our moral standards whatever they were and at the same time keep our daughters from detaching from us. This is a very difficult thing for people to do. I have found no one else with enough expertise who could have taught me this. It required a feminine viewpoint as well as a gifted therapist. Also, she did NOT have the group pray as she normally would have out of respect for my religion although I offered to leave the room.
I have lots more resources, which I will send later....
Also, my wording of "despite being raised in the Truth" in my post in July, is nonsensical to you and me, but there are many other Witnesses who do think this way and need me to start where they are. I had one 50 year old sister with her own punitive conscience and lack of insight into the human condition tell me that my unbaptized daughter was raised in the Truth and therefore "should know better." (She also believed incorrectly that no one should speak to my daughter if she comes to the hall). I have listened to talks from brothers who think that none raised in the Truth should struggle with these feelings since we all have been told it is wrong to be gay. There is much ignorance in this regard and it is unnecessary. They need to know that DESPITE being raised in the truth, some, through no fault of their own, struggle tremendously with this and in fact are deserving of our support. Hopefully the brothers at Bethel can do more to correct these misconceptions which are so very common even in our religion and which are destructive to strugglers. We need to do more. Three percent of western societies (nuclear family as opposed to tribal living) will manifest as gay. If we were doing well helping these strugglers, I would expect to see many more stories of people overcoming in the Awake!
As to me being made out to be a bad person or a failure as a mother because my daughter is gay...if genes are the cause, as you believe, then its still likely my fault anyway..Neither scenario requires volition from me to hurt my child. Stuff happens. And when you consider that our parents were shaped by their early life experiences, and their parents were shaped by their own parents and so on ...then you see it really does go all the way back to Adam and Eve's choice, just like the Society says. Creation really has been subjected to "futility." However, for my daughter to blame me would be the start of her healing because she would rather blame anything other than me, her mother, for the nightmare of shame and guilt she has lived. She must experience anger and then the painful devastating grief to move forward and heal. It is typical of many children to defend against blaming the parent for some deep hurts because it feels almost like annihilation. The grief work can be temporarily incapacitating.
Clearly, most cannot afford prolonged treatment by a therapist and good therapists are hard to find anyway, but there is much each of us can do to show our love and support of those who do struggle with same sex attraction. We are losing far too many of our young people who do not have the emotional strength that some of you old timers have. I personally know five of them and I failed to understand and encourage them in a meaningful way for their particular struggle. All I knew was that they were detached.
Phil, I know you and I differ in some of our ideas, but I so very much appreciate your encouragement of all to stay faithful. Thanks. | Wednesday, August 2nd 2006 - 07:32:31 AM
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Thank you for those important points Oliver.
I don't especially want the Guestbook to diverge into very extensive discussion of "Reparative Therapy", since there is a very full discussion of it, with many links and quotes in the Forum, relatively easily accessed by persons with a genuine interest in pursuing the topic.
The matter you raise is an important one, however, Oliver, and I am glad that you posted it, since ideas about "therapy" have come up in the public Guestbooks.
It has been pointed out that true Christians may feel concern respecting NARTH and their website, since it quite prominently features a Mr. A. Medinger who claims that his homosexuality was cured one night by "a whole bunch of miracles" at a prayer meeting in one of Christendom's churches.
Why would an organisation purporting to offer clinical understanding and clinical treatment methodologies feature "miracles"?
The "Deliverance at Hand" convention talk to which you allude makes the specific point that true Christians need to be very wary of any health 'treatment' that seems to involve the use of "uncanny power" or of the occult.
Becky, the Awake! article from which you quote, is one of the series of three "Young People Ask" articles that appeared in February/March 1995. These articles are carefully written, and will repay careful reading in their entirety, which I strongly recommend.
Among the many points made in these articles, are a couple of mentions of, and brief quotes from, Joseph Nicolosi.
Although the Watchtower Society always says that it does not recommend or endorse any particular medical treatment, and although the 1995 Awake! articles point out some problems in what Nicolosi claims about homosexuality, it appears that some individuals have taken the mention of his name in Awake! as some kind of endorsement of "reparative therapy".
Nicolosi's book was first published in June 1991, so when researchers were compliling information for the 1995 Awake!articles, it would have been a fairly new, and apparently credible source (although its ideas are much older).
Time has not added lustre to Nicolosi's theories. The science of the intervening years has, I believe, entirely tarnished and rusted the notions in his book, and pointed in very different directions. It is notable that his name has not been mentioned in any subsequent coverage of the topic in any of the Watchtower literature.
When researching sources for an article on a secular or science topic, the Society's writers can only use whatever secular scholarship is available at the time. Often as scholarship moves on, former ideas need to be reconsidered and/or abandoned.
That is why, for example, first edition copies of the truly excellent "All Scripture is Inspired and Beneficial" offer a theory about ancient documents in Genesis which does not appear in later editions. The scholarship, though appearing credible and worth offering in the 1960s, was subsequently found not to be reliable. There is nothing at all wrong in this process - it is absolutely standard and aboveboard.
I believe that it is a mistake to place any credence in 2006 on the ideas of Joseph Nicolosi or of English theologian Dr. Elizabeth Moberly concerning the origins and 'treatment' of homosexual desire. But I may be wrong. Readers anxious to know the current view of the Watchtower and Awake! writers on this topic can of course write respectfully to the Watchtower society and ask.
| Tuesday, August 1st 2006 - 01:08:52 PM
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Hello all,
Referring to the subject of "reparative therapy", i want to add a factor which matters especially for Jehovah's Witnesses.
All books about that subject i read and heard of, are written by "christian" authors. All of them involve religious thoughts and acts (like prayer) in their suggested treatments. Even an organisation like "alcoholics anonymous" use such religious acts in their meetings. A sister i know, who became alcoholic, decided not to continue to go there, because the religious part of it became too much for a christian.
A second circumstance is: who offers such treatments, who gets the money? Lately i got some invitations from brothers to join them in such "treatments". Both the organiser and promoter, as well as the payee were religious organisations.
If i consider those facts, it's more than questionable, it's dangerous for Jehovah's Witnesses, who want to stay clean from pollution by false religion, to join such "treatments" in the name of religion. We got some good counsel at our conventions in connection with views on health and treatments. One possible result could be that the person who joins them, is to exclude himself from the congregation. More about that one can read in our "organised"-book on page 155f. | Tuesday, August 1st 2006 - 07:30:09 AM
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Becky, what books have you read, and are you sure the writers didn't simply make stuff up?
I think I really have to put some counter-thoughts here. I am sure you expect no less of me!
The remarks that follow are the result of quite extensive and prolonged (and continuing) investigation and reading.
I believe that it is wrong and hurtful for you or any other parent to be told that they are implicated in the homosexual orientation of their offspring. I believe that such ideas are entirely wrong and that those who sell books and "treatments" based on them are reprehensible and that they can point to no clinical evidence base.
I believe that for you to say "Despite being raised in the Truth, my daughter is identifying as lesbian" makes no more sense than for me to say "Despite being raised in the truth my friend A is haemophiliac, despite being rasied in the Turth my friend B has a cleft palette and despite being raised in the Truth a Third friend developed Lupus".
The thread on Reparative Therapy in the Forum of this site is the longest thread, with some 11 pages of postings. It contains many links and references on this important topic. It would behove anyone with a genuine interest in this topic to read that thread carefully.
I would stress that I am completely open to credible evidence on this subject, as indicated on the Therapy for Change page of the site
( www.gaywitness.f9.co.uk/therapy.html )
Prolonged reading and searching has revealed no credible evidence for efficacy of attempts to alter orientation of sexual desire. But I remain entirely open to evidence, even anecdotal, and to that end would be grateful to learn more details of the person you quote in your post. Would he be interested to enter into private correspondence with me? I would also be interested to know the titles of the books you have read.
Faithful Hebrew prophet Isaiah asked the nation of Israel at a time when they looked in the wrong directions for help "Why do you people keeping paying money for what is not bread, and why is your toil for what results in no satisfaction".
My current feeling on the basis of the available evidence is that this question can aptly be applied to those looking to "therapies" aimed at changing sexual orientation.
| Friday, July 28th 2006 - 12:05:57 PM
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Hi R.A.,
I hear what you are saying about the drive to be held. Although raised in the Truth, my 18 year old is identifying as lesbian. She told me she needed to be held by a woman and that she thought she had to go to the lesbian world to get that. For her it wasn't about sex, it was about being held. She said that she was afraid that people in the Truth would think that was weird.
From this and from books I have read, I understand the meaning of her need and as a parent it is relatively easy for me to hold her on my lap and give her the love she apparently did not get enough of as an infant from me. I got training in reflective listening this past spring at a mothers of lesbians retreat. I hope that this combined with parent child hugging and touch will provide a secure attachment that over time will allow her to mature through what for her is a grade school level of early life and peer sexual identification needs.
The following is a quote from a NARTH member who benefited from healthy touch.
"Through my therapeutic experiences, I learned that my homosexual attractions and behavior were symptoms of a deeper need. This need is to receive love from other men in a non-sexual way. Early childhood sexual abuse, an emotionally distant and detached father, unhealthy relationships with my mother and grandmothers and a feeling of non-acceptance from other boys and men all caused my homosexual attractions. Because I was wounded at such an early age, I shut down emotionally to protect myself. This kept out more pain from coming in, but it also kept me from receiving same-sex love that I so desperately needed.
Through the course of my healing, I have received a lot of non-sexual touch from other men. This touch and my release of so much emotional pain has helped heal my wounds.
I am now 26 and have been free from homosexual acting-out for three years. I am no longer sexually drawn to other men, and my previously non-existent heterosexual attractions have emerged."
Our brother Phil, who kindly keeps this site up, takes a different approach to fighting imperfect tendencies, but maybe this will give you some insight into your legitimate need for intimacy and how to get that need fulfilled in a way acceptable to our society and to Jehovah. Is your father alive? Is he in the Truth?
One Awake! article suggests the following: "But just as the young man Timothy became like a son to the apostle Paul, one may find it particularly helpful to develop a healthy understanding with a balanced older Christian man. (Philippians 2:19-22; 2 Timothy 3:10) By establishing clear behavioral boundaries and cultivating open communication, such a relationship can be warm and trusting, yet free of any erotic overtones." Awake! also suggests meditating on Jesus and building a secure relationship with Jehovah. However, this can be like putting the cart before the horse. We learn about unconditional secure love in the physical world as an infant and child before we can think abstractly enough to love invisible spirit creatures. If a connection didn't happen or there was a disconnection, then the key is to build a supportive relationship with mature, secure understanding person of the same sex who will above all not shame you in your efforts. Relatively few men I've met can provide that kind of time and sensitivity (even the apostles took years to mature like that and we all overuse shame). They are basically becoming substitute fathers which is a lot of work. However, keep praying for such a man or men to help you and don't feel ashamed about it. Hopefully the Society can do more to develop such men.
| Saturday, July 22nd 2006 - 06:16:29 AM
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Welcome Cohen!
I can't imagine the trials you are going through! At least you are able to be open with your wife. I cannot imagine being married and dealing with this issue. You have come to the right place. Take care.
P.S. I guess I also want to be one of the first people to "sign" Guestbook 5! hehehe | Monday, July 17th 2006 - 07:11:09 AM
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This is the brand new Guestbook service!
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